Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Entek
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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by Entek » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:51 pm

FieldMarshall Ober wrote:
Entek wrote:I can't seem to find anything for the Japanese, the closest thing for the Russians would be the Il-10, but we have that already.

As far as stats for the HS129, since it basically had a Panzer IV gun mounted on it the AV should be somewhere along those lines. Maybe a little higher to represent attacking the Top armor of the vehicles. After brief reading on Wiki, it seems that it was heavily armored against small arms fire so it should probably have Superior Armor 2 like the Stumrovik, but since it's engines were crap it should probably should have the SA Slow like the Stuka giving planes a +1 when attacking it.

Something like this, Speed: A Def: 4/4, AV: 17/14/12 AI: 7/5/- SA's: Aircraft, Superior Armor 2, Slow Cost: 24? (just basing this off the Sturm)
It looks like a good starting place! What do you think of accuracy of firing a 75mm from an aircraft? From what ive read they weren't that accurate. Whats you opinion of how to buffer this; lower the AT stats or add an inaccurate -1 SA or some other modifier? Thoughts?
Lowering the attack line would probably be the way to go. The Sturm is probably the best thing we have for a comparison. Maybe just put it the line somewhere at 13/11/- I was just about to edit my response before I saw your reply. I don't think the 129 should have inaccurate since it seemed to be pretty accurate, but the 7.5cm did limit the mobility a lot.

Maybe the Mosquito should have some sort of one time Rocket Salvo, but instead of having the area effect like the one on the Nebel or the Katy limit it to just one Hex like Blast.
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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by curtm1911 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:25 pm

Was just looking at the American cards for ATG/ART & thought maybe use the stats for the 3" gun minus 1 Attack Die. Instead of 14/12/10 go wth 13/10/-. From the footage of the plane attacking the boat on "Great Planes", it seemed pretty accurate. Looking at the stats for the M8 Pack Howitzer, they seem too low for this application in the AV attack, since I think the 75MM in the B-25 was a more High Velocity version 75MM. The M8 Pack howitzer AI numbers could work ok I think for this piece. 9/8/- with the "Inaccurate" SA vs Infantry, they can be more dispersed, but not vs Vehicles. I'll let others give their input on this.

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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by FieldMarshall Ober » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:28 pm

I'm not 100% sure the Mosquito used the rockets much. The two articles I read didn't mention the rockets but when I went looking for photos I found the one I posted with the rocket. It kind of intrieged me so I posted it. I need to continue my research and find out more because IMO the rockets would be better than a bomb attack. Having said that one article mentioned that it frequently carried single 4000 lb bomb to attack ground targets. I'm not even sure a 4000 lb bomb could translate into AAM.

I will stick to the Mosquito research if you want to contunue researching the HS129 and we can meet back here to compare notes. I assume you will be up for playtesting your HS129. :D

Would someone like to take a crack at the B-25 or the Ki-45 ? [EDIT] I just saw Curts post so it looks like we have a taker for the B-25. Ki-45 anyone?
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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by curtm1911 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:03 pm

Gee thanks Ober.........:D..........

Since you so kindly "Volunteered" me for this & my library is in storage, I would give the .50 cal/20MM armed version(s) AI numbers of 9/8/- with maybe a -1 on the cover roll, there is a LOT of lead flying into the target hex & AV numbers of 5/4/- or 4/3/-. I arrived at these figures by the fact that they would try their best to be attacking from the rear of a vehicle & it has a fair to decent chance of causing damage or even a kill on an already dispered/damaged vehicle & the top/rear armor is being targeted. I have more than a nodding acquaintence with Small Arms Ballistics which is also used in these equations/figures.

A bit of a side note here:
I think that the Quad .50 as it is now is WAY under powered. It should at the least be as potent as the MG42. As it is now, it is equal to the M1919 at short & medium range & less at long range. Not really indicative of the vast difference in bullet size, weapon range & energy, but then WotC was not really known for thorough research on things sometimes.

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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by FieldMarshall Ober » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:28 pm

curtm1911 wrote:Gee thanks Ober.........:D..........

Since you so kindly "Volunteered" me for this & my library is in storage, I would give the .50 cal/20MM armed version(s) AI numbers of 9/8/- with maybe a -1 on the cover roll, there is a LOT of lead flying into the target hex & AV numbers of 5/4/- or 4/3/-. I arrived at these figures by the fact that they would try their best to be attacking from the rear of a vehicle & it has a fair to decent chance of causing damage or even a kill on an already dispered/damaged vehicle & the top/rear armor is being targeted. I have more than a nodding acquaintence with Small Arms Ballistics which is also used in these equations/figures.

A bit of a side note here:
I think that the Quad .50 as it is now is WAY under powered. It should at the least be as potent as the MG42. As it is now, it is equal to the M1919 at short & medium range & less at long range. Not really indicative of the vast difference in bullet size, weapon range & energy, but then WotC was not really known for thorough research on things sometimes.

I must confess Curt that I knew you were a WWII aircraft fan from some of you past posts and secretly hoped I could draw you in. :Tout: Mission accomplished.

Your right about the B-25, that is a lot of lead flying around. It might even qualify for a AI of 10/8/- or even bombardment of some sort. What is your feeling on the armor stats? The US stuff was typically well armored.

I never really got the difference between the Quad 50 and the M1919 either. The long range attack dice never made sense to me.
"Maybe there are 5,000, maybe 10,000 Nazi bastards in their concrete foxholes before the Third Army. Now if Ike stops holding Monty's hand and gives me some supplies, I'll go through the Siegfried Line like %*$# through a goose."
~Gen. G.S. Patton

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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by curtm1911 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:00 pm

For the Defense/Armor factor on the B-25, since most if not all Propeller Aircraft in this game are 4/4, we could just go with this & "Superior Armor 2" I think would work out fine.

As for my love & knowing about WWII aircraft, lotsa reading about them. I'm a child of the 60's pretty much. My late oldest sister was a stewardess for United Airlines in the early 60's. She was based out of NYC, Idlewild Airport. She married a Delta Mechanic. Their 3 kids are all in or were involved in the industry. The oldest, my niece, is married to a pilot. She was a stewardess for TWA & he was a pilot for them, now flies for American Airlines. The 2 sons work for Southwest & Delta. My brother was in the Air Force. He also was an A&P mechanic for many years. My other sisters youngest daughter is also married to a pilot. Whenever I go out to East Mesa & am near Falcon Field, a former WWII training field as is Scottsdale Airport, I always stop in at the Commemorative Air Force Hanger/Museum. It is the home of the "Sentimental Journey" B-17G as well as several other planes including a B-25 recently restored to Flying Condition. I end up spending a couple hours there, talking to the members & hearing their stories of the planes & the history of them as well. I also hit the Gift Shop & buy something, it is a VERY GOOD CAUSE. "Keep 'Em Flying" is their motto & all proceeds pretty much go to keep things flying. I was hooked on planes & flying as a kid from the first ride I ever had in a plane. From all this, I guess I come by my love of things aeronautical natually.

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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by Stalker6 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:21 pm

As one of the lucky guys getting a Loco painted HS129, I am looking forward to seeing what stats you come up with for this plane.

As for the B25 w/ 75mm cannon, I believe this was mainly used in the Pacific in an anti-shipping role. A high velocity, lightweight 75mm gun was developed for this plane but was generally considered to be an inaccurate weapon. I also read where this version was used against communication and transport hubs, but not really individual tanks and such. Several squadrons flew the type in a light bomber role in the North African/Italian theater.

The A20 Havoc had similar setup of guns and cannons in the nose and I think some experiments were carried out with a 75mm gun. It was used in a ground attack role, especially by the Russians who received a large number through the lend lease program.

I think the A26 gained most of its fame as ground attack platform during the Korean and Vietnam wars. It was not operational in WWII until late 1944.

The PE-2 was used by the Russians (and Finns) in a direct ground attack role.

Another plane for the Commonwealth might be the Beaufighter, but this might have been used mainly for anti shipping strikes. I have not done much reading on this plane.

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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by FieldMarshall Ober » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:07 pm

Stalker6 wrote:As one of the lucky guys getting a Loco painted HS129, I am looking forward to seeing what stats you come up with for this plane.

As for the B25 w/ 75mm cannon, I believe this was mainly used in the Pacific in an anti-shipping role. A high velocity, lightweight 75mm gun was developed for this plane but was generally considered to be an inaccurate weapon. I also read where this version was used against communication and transport hubs, but not really individual tanks and such. Several squadrons flew the type in a light bomber role in the North African/Italian theater.

The A20 Havoc had similar setup of guns and cannons in the nose and I think some experiments were carried out with a 75mm gun. It was used in a ground attack role, especially by the Russians who received a large number through the lend lease program.

I think the A26 gained most of its fame as ground attack platform during the Korean and Vietnam wars. It was not operational in WWII until late 1944.

The PE-2 was used by the Russians (and Finns) in a direct ground attack role.

Another plane for the Commonwealth might be the Beaufighter, but this might have been used mainly for anti shipping strikes. I have not done much reading on this plane.
So it sounds like the NA/Italian theater version would be the best choice for a B-25 GA aircraft. That would give the reins to fly through most of the war.

I have some research on Mosquito versions to post for us to look over but I am off the taxi my teenagers around for the day so i will get it posted tonight.

The PE-2 might be a good option for giving the Russian one too. That would be cool if all the majors had access to a medium GA aircraft. Good Job Entek!

PS - I want a HS129 too. The more I learn the more I want one. Well I'm off the the FoW store to look for a few HS's. :D
"Maybe there are 5,000, maybe 10,000 Nazi bastards in their concrete foxholes before the Third Army. Now if Ike stops holding Monty's hand and gives me some supplies, I'll go through the Siegfried Line like %*$# through a goose."
~Gen. G.S. Patton

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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by FieldMarshall Ober » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:53 pm

Here's an excerpt from Wiki. I checked the references and they appear to be good. It looks to me like the Mosquito FB Mk VI will be the best choice for a fighter bomber
The FB Mk VI, which first flew on 1 June 1942, was powered by two 1,460 hp (1,088 kW) Merlin 21s or 1,635 hp (1,218 kW) Merlin 25s, and introduced a re-stressed and reinforced "basic" wing structure capable of carrying two 250 lb (115 kg) or a single 500 lb (230 kg) bombs on racks housed in streamlined fairings under each wing, or up to eight RP-3 25lb or 60 lb rockets. In addition fuel lines were added to the wings to enable single 50 imperial gallons (230 l) or 100 imperial gallons (450 l) drop tanks to be carried under each wing.[100][131] The usual fixed armament was four 20 mm Hispano Mk.II cannon and four .303 (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns, while two 250 lb (115 kg) or 500 lb (230 kg) bombs could be carried in the bomb bay.
This configuration would give it good ground attacks and a once per game Bomb or Rocket SA attacks

Thoughts?
"Maybe there are 5,000, maybe 10,000 Nazi bastards in their concrete foxholes before the Third Army. Now if Ike stops holding Monty's hand and gives me some supplies, I'll go through the Siegfried Line like %*$# through a goose."
~Gen. G.S. Patton

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Re: Mosquito, HS129 & B-25 Ground Attack aircraft cards

Unread post by curtm1911 » Tue May 21, 2013 4:40 pm

A couple examples of B-25's. The Russian marked one is from a book of mine, not too often we see them with these markings I bet & the real one is from the Commemorative Air force Wing in Arizona. This was it's second outing after a 4-5 year restoration.
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